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High performance and better fuel consumption...

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High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby el_jelly » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:49 pm

Its been always told that when you modify your car for getting more power your fuel mileage will suffer inevitably. However since I know how frugal 4 cyl engines can be and the fact that turbocharging increases the efficiency of the engine (transforming input chemical energy to mechanical energy) I've always believe that you can have the best of both worlds depending on the setup, tuning, how you drive, etc. Well, I stumbled across this interesting forum thread about a guy with turbocharged d16 del Sol that have achieved 70 mpg (3.36 l/100km) through intense tuning and aero mods to his car

http://www.d-series.org/forums/forced-i ... -8mpg.html

is more than 10 pages long but is really a good reading on the topic of fuel saving plus performance.

That fuel yield sounds nice but with the aero mods and extreme leaning of the engine I don't think it will be too great to drive around all time (although it can still haul ass :D ). Probably is correct to think that tuning it more conservative and without too many aeromods the car may still achieve above 45 mpg, still a respectable number for everyday use ;) .

I read about people modifying their engines and only interested in hp numbers and not anything else (even torque is not important anymore). Every time someone comes with the idea of getting good fuel mileage they get flamed and harassed for the idea. What you guys think of this? Will it be worthwhile to go extreme tuning a car to achieve super low fuel consumption and good horsepower? Definitely I believe in both.
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby geartech » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:48 am

thanks for the great read this guy is gonna have my full attention
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby el_jelly » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:31 am

Some weeks ago I think it was freydaddy that posted about advancing cam timing to get a little more power, I answered by saying I've read about many people that have advanced the timing to get better fuel yield and have got good results in both areas. In the thread posted above you can see in the build this is proven.

I need to learn more about timing :) .
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby ApocalypseXL » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:16 pm

I'm reading it now . I do hope he provides enough data .

It sounds to extreme to get almost 100% more fuel efficiency .

EDIT : Quite a bit of brain food in that topic . Got my thinking gears running for the 1st time in weeks . I never gave any consideration to air temp , my opinion was just the cooler the better . I have the sudden urge to kill that molecule guy for posting in a manner that caused my eyes to bleed (besides posting a lot of BS) . But the modification was quite remarkable (the engine not the aero) .

For better MPG i was thinking of direct fuel injection . Has anyone done this to a Honda engine yet ? Other than that continuous variable valve timing is suppose to increase mpg by 35% , however bot Ricardo and Valeo showed no progress in the last 2 years .

I wanted to design a fuel heater but i barely have time to sleep this days >:( >:( i guess that will help both mpg and bhp .

I'm not sure if increased fuel pressure couple whit reduced injector squirt times will increase swirl , and what's the limit before the Coanda effect kicks in . Maybe cougar would know ?
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby el_jelly » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:27 pm

I think direct injection will require major head work, the space above the head is already little for putting an injector in tandem with the spark plug....

Using an aftermaket intake manifold with aditional injector plugs may help in your idea, also what about putting the fuel lines over the exhaust pipe prior to getting to the fuel rail so it heats up? Another thing not mentioned in that topic but that also improves fuel consumption is water injection. In atomized form it help a lot and I think that with a super lean engine (lets say above 19:1 a/f ratio) it will add a little more safety (more oxygen, better to ignite mixture).
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby ApocalypseXL » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:41 pm

I think water injection works well for lowering intake temps and preventing knock but i don't think I could make a big difference in MPG .

When it comes to fuel heating i would not trust anything that's not digitally controlled whit at least one failsafe . If you can't keep the fuel temperature in a tight grip you're asking for trouble .

Personally i think that the best investment in MPG and BHP is investing in weight . Even the humble fiberglass can make a huge impact if used properly . It is less complicated then engine tuning and it has very few drawbacks . If you have the $$$$ to go for carbon fiber the results are spectacular . I think you can take the Civic from 1850 pounds (sedan weight whit AC + PS is used for this example) to 1600 pounds if you replace the bumpers , hood , trunk lid , fenders (the gains here are quite small) , front bumper support , trunk trim , backseat support and rims . If you also do windows , floors and doors i think you can drop the weight to 1400-1500 , this is while keeping the AC and PS . Remove the AC and you lost another 100 pounds .
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby freydaddy » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:38 pm

a/c weighs 100 pounds?
what is it? a window unit for the house? ;D :confused2:
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby ApocalypseXL » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:48 am

Well I'm not sure on the exact number but my compressor weighed a ton when i took it down , the support alone must be 8 pounds the piping is worth a few good pounds and the evaporator is also a heavy sob . I remember i weighted my car before and after taking weight off i lost a lot of weight from taking town the A/C and removing the accursed 120 vacuum assisted carb , I also a did a truckload of modifications that helped lower weight . The grand total was about 90 kg . I blame the A/C for most of the weight .
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby cougar289 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:47 am

It's 45 pounds for the a/c compressor, piping, condensor, and can (I weighed all of these components myself). The sedan weighs more like 2300lbs with a/c and p/s.
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby el_jelly » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:55 am

The compressor is 20-30 pounds depending if there's oil inside, the whole system including relays, wires, the climate control unit, hoses, etc may approach the 100 pounds but not that much.

Obviously cutting weight down saves fuel and increases performance but it will reach a max point after which reducing weight will be impractical, unsafe and won't do anything more. Riding in a kite won't be fun at all.

Two more links now related to water in the engine. The first is about water injection but it's more about "induction" since the people posting are just using water that is on mist form and some form of vacuum so it's swallowed by the engine. Best in the thread: one guy with a d16z6 that with home-made stuff achieved better fuel consumption:
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1673

This other one is a review of technologies available for water injection and lots of interesting info on the use of water as fuel or additive to fuel (war planes, diesel engines, patented stuff, commercial system, etc): http://waterfuel.100free.com/water_injection.html
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby ApocalypseXL » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:21 am

cougar289 wrote:It's 45 pounds for the a/c compressor, piping, condensor, and can (I weighed all of these components myself). The sedan weighs more like 2300lbs with a/c and p/s.

Prolly the 4g one , mine is a 3g so 2040 according to the book and 2008 according to the scale .
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby freydaddy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:06 am

we can easily convert our cars to run off some water.
www.ehow.com/how_4621378_make-own-hydro ... -cars.html
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby cougar289 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:46 am

Start off with a small, yet practical, engine. A D15 is an excellent starting point. B1 cam, MPFI (only because it can be tuned otherwise: DPFI), maybe 10.5:1 compression. A very well built, tight engine so you can run 0w-20 synthetic oil. Knife-edged crank, balanced rotating assembly. 5 speed DX trans. This setup alone would net you 45mpg in an 88 hatch chassis or CRX HF - if never driven above 55mph, never revved above 3k rpm, and slight tuning. City/highway combined. Highway alone you could get 55mpg on a long level grade. (Suck it Prius)

Hot air intake

Cut massive amounts of weight, the main source of fuel consumption is getting the car moving.

5 gallon fuel cell. Those are easier if you want to get into fuel heating, although I believe fuel heating is bad idea. Even heating the lines via exhaust would cause vapor lock after heat soak sets in.

Running an extremely lean mixture...keep the combustion chamber temperatures down with water injection would be a great idea...but it's better to stick with a more practical ratio. The goal is both less air and less gasoline. Not just less gasoline.

You'd make a whopping 45hp with that setup though. Might aswell buy a geo metro and call it a day.
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby ApocalypseXL » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:38 am

freydaddy wrote:we can easily convert our cars to run off some water.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4621378_make-ow ... -cars.html


I don't want to sound rude or something but that thing is highly unpractical . You simply don't have a any control on the reaction . It's as dangerous as driving around whit a cracked Nitrous tube .

Tuning for MPG is a bit like screwing for virginity . You can't say "I'm happy whit my car it does 75 MPG and it's as slow as a dead snail" . It's not practical to force the car to do that . It's true that a Honda can reach highway speed whit just 40 CHP and still have a decent acceleration but there are better ways to improve fuel economy . A widespread upgrade in EU is adapting LPG fuel system . LPG has 10% worst MPG compared whit gasoline but it only cost 50% it also robs you of BHP and Torque but if you're interested in saving money this is one of the best bang for your buck solutions .

Again for fuel efficiency tuning the best way to go is weight .
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Re: High performance and better fuel consumption...

Postby el_jelly » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:38 am

cougar289 wrote:Start off with a small, yet practical, engine. A D15 is an excellent starting point. B1 cam, MPFI (only because it can be tuned otherwise: DPFI), maybe 10.5:1 compression. A very well built, tight engine so you can run 0w-20 synthetic oil. Knife-edged crank, balanced rotating assembly. 5 speed DX trans. This setup alone would net you 45mpg in an 88 hatch chassis or CRX HF - if never driven above 55mph, never revved above 3k rpm, and slight tuning. City/highway combined. Highway alone you could get 55mpg on a long level grade. (Suck it Prius)

:thumbright:

And tuning the engine for a super lean a/f ratio. However one good thing about adding a turbocharger is that you get back some of the energy lost in the exhaust so then engine is more efficient. With a high compression NA engine you still have a super inefficient machine, and it will never be as close efficient as a diesel one.

Just some days ago I was reading on another forum about people that are tuning their base model lancers(es and gts) and just with an ecu re-flash they have gained 4 - 7 mpg. It doesn't sounds like a lot right but consider it was just a simple ecu mod that was done for getting better performance and more hp, the gain in fuel was just supplementary.

The use of propane gas is a good idea, I did a project about that in a management class and the save in fuel was noticeable but just because the gas cost less than the fuel and the maintenance of the vehicles is less than the fuel only vehicles. The fuel consumption stays the same more or less, however it was amazing to see for example pick up trucks used in construction that have more than 10 years in use with the lpg conversion and when the oil cap was removed everything inside looked new, no carbon deposits, tar or that sludge common in normal vehicles. I was skeptical in the beginning when the guy that does the conversion told us they change oil in those trucks every 8000 miles or 10K, he told us that the oil never gets dirty and retains its properties fine. The truck I saw had the same for the last couple of years, and it looked like new.
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